Michael Conniff (00:01)
Hello again, everybody, and welcome back to the accelerator with Michael Conniff. That's me today. We are very excited to be joined from joined by rather Sean Clifford and Pat Waters from team group holdings. Um, Sean, I'm going to introduce him as a businessman first, a player second. He's the president of limitless, which is focused on NIL business, uh, for team group, um, Pat is, um, a long time sports marketing guru, uh,

And leader, his company is strategic sports marketing and also sports vault. All three of those are divisions of team group holdings. And Sean, of course, has this other like a day job, a day job with the Green Bank Packers playing quarterback, was a star at Penn State and had the idea of jumping onto the limitless, not just the limitless, the NIL.

Pat Waters (00:47)
Okay. So, I'm going to go ahead and start the presentation. So, I'm going to start with the presentation. So, I'm going to start with the

Sean Clifford (00:47)
No.

Michael Conniff (01:01)
movement, which started, you were still at Penn State, I believe. And I actually just listened to your podcast with your buddy Brennanman called Brennanman shows up very good podcast. So I know a little bit of the background, but you are you played six years at Penn State. So you're kind of a, you know, in a way, historically, like a transition figure, because you were there when it started as an athlete, and you started making money. So

Sean Clifford (01:10)
Yes.

Michael Conniff (01:29)
What was it like not to make money and then suddenly to make money and then how did that drive you into Limitless?

Sean Clifford (01:36)
Yeah, I appreciate you having me on Michael. It's been a crazy ride. The Wild West is a lot of people call it. It's a little bit more structured now, so it can definitely, you know, give kudos where it's due. We've made a lot of good changes, both with our company and numerous companies that we've worked alongside with NIL. But before, you know, 2021, July 1st, 2021, when legislation passed.

It was a typical day in the life of a student athlete. You're living on a stipend, trying to make ends meet every once in a while. But really living out of the facility, free food, wherever you would get anything free, you're going to try to make that happen. So before NIL, it was a lot of less business and a lot more ball. And now it's a nice blend between finding your why outside.

of football or whatever sport you might be playing and being able to blend that with the sport you love.

Michael Conniff (02:40)
And I wanna ask before I jump over to Pat, I wanted to ask just what was it like for your teammates and you in the locker room? You go from being, I mean, it's really well documented. I think one of the best examples of college athletes struggling to buy a pizza is the Fab Four, the Michigan basketball team that were huge stars and had no money and were pretty resentful about it with good reason, I think. But what was...

Did it change the dynamics or has it changed the dynamics of the locker room?

Sean Clifford (03:14)
It has, it has in good ways and bad ways. You know, specifically in the Penn State locker room, it's been mostly all good. We've had the right characters in there to be able to move the needle in a positive direction. But, you know, I like to focus on the good and the good has really been to bring business minds into light with a lot of these athletes because before that you were just an athlete. That, you know, you.

student first, athlete second, and that was it. But now, being able to explore other avenues and other opportunities outside of your sport, it allows a much more holistic view of what you see as your brand and what you see as really an entrepreneur, because that's what every athlete is now, is their own business and their own path towards success. So it's been good, I would say, overall.

Michael Conniff (04:11)
And that is new compared to the old days where, you know, Andy Robustelli on the Giants had a shoe store in Connecticut where people sold insurance or all sorts of things. Now, Pat, you've been in sports a very long time. You've kind of seen it all. What was it about what Sean was doing that kind of brought you together with Limitless?

Pat Waters (04:37)
Yeah.

that crazy Supreme Court ruling came through in July 21st of 2021. I saw it, you know, I was.

Michael Conniff (04:47)
Name, image, and likeness, we should point out. Yeah, not everybody knows what NIL means. Name, image, and likeness. Athletes can profit on themselves while still in school.

Pat Waters (04:50)
Exactly.

Correct. Yeah. And when that came was pushed through by the Supreme Court, like I said, back in 2021, we saw opportunity to go out and do what we'd had done successfully, which is partner athletes with brands at the professional level. Now we were going to be very selective about doing it at the collegiate level, a mutual business acquaintance. As we got started, we signed up a couple of kids, went through the learning curve. And somebody said, hey,

you should take a ride up and talk to Sean Clifford. There might be some synergies with what he's doing. So I took that three hour trek up to State College. I sat down across from Sean, really didn't know what to expect. We kind of booked about a half an hour together. And I think probably about five and a half hours later, I just said, hey, he's already got what I wanna build. And we just clicked. I mean, immediately from that moment, Sean and his brother, Liam,

We sat across from each other, which was kind of an impromptu meeting. And I said, why build it when we have it right here? And Sean asked me, I think at the point, he said, would you be our first board member? And I said, Sean, give me about a week. I got a better idea. Let's, uh, you know, let's, let's get back together. And that's where we sat back down. I said, let's put these two companies together. You have the same moral compass. The guys have.

what we want already in place. I mean, what they had built out, the infrastructure in NIL, I hadn't seen anything like it. We certainly didn't have what they had, and we had the same common goals, and the rest is history. We put it together last year.

Michael Conniff (06:38)
That's great. And I want to remind everyone you're listening to the Accelerator podcast. We're on all the major audio platforms, Apple, Amazon, Audible, et cetera, also on Spotify and YouTube with video and audio. Also our Substack newsletter, which delivers the podcast and other goodies to you is the acce And we have a companion podcast called The Angel as well.

So Sean, I want to follow up on what Pat said. He said you had the infrastructure. What did he mean? What does he mean by that? What did you have in place at that?

Sean Clifford (07:13)
Well, initially it was just a fantastic team that has been built out even farther than when we made that sale. But it's a funny story. My brother and I, when we were working out of, quite literally just my apartment, I lived at a complex that had a very nice kind of group offering where it was an office space, just a clubhouse with pool and whatnot. And if you know anything about Penn State,

When it's the summer, there's no one there. It's just the athletes and international students. So it's just the two groups. So there's not many people to take up that space. So I went ahead and I actually asked the manager at our complex and said, hey, I have this business. We're operating it currently just out of my living room. I would love to be able to bring my employees in, some clients and different people, people like Pat who eventually came through.

to the complex and it ended up being fantastic. We operated out of my apartment, space, whatever you wanna call it really. And it just continued to build. And the beauty of it, we switched our mailing address to that area. The people knew when certain people walked through that door, when an athlete walked through that door, they just pointed directly at our office space, right behind.

Do we have some interruptions every once in a while? Yeah, but that's what a startup is all about, just finding a way. So it really was as startup grimy as ever. Now we have a nice, beautiful two story in Downingtown, Pennsylvania. So can't complain whatsoever, but came a long way. But definitely initially it was a grime.

Michael Conniff (08:59)
That's great. Now we should also point out you're coming to us from Green Bay where the food is still free at the facility. So Sean is not is no fool about that sort of thing. Yes, Pat, go ahead.

Pat Waters (09:00)
Okay.

No, I was going to say, I was just to add to that. Sean mentioned they used the clubhouse facility. Michael, I'm here to tell you, they took it over. I went in there and they had a whole business operating, Uber dropping off athletes. They had little individual meeting rooms within there. It was like Grand Central Station. It was so cool. It just like I told you, it really did. It got my entrepreneurial juices flowing when I walked out of there. I went to the hotel.

Sean Clifford (09:30)
Okay.

Pat Waters (09:37)
that night to meet my son and my wife and I couldn't sleep. I was just my wheels were turning that whole night. So it was awesome.

Michael Conniff (09:43)
You're so excited. And Sean, you know, when I think about this idea of the athlete as entrepreneur, I give a lot of credit to Magic Johnson as I think kind of showing what could be done with his Magic Johnson. I think it's Magic Johnson Enterprises. But then, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the money started to go big, get so big at the top of the pyramid. The athletes just had so much money. They had to do something with it.

other than you like sticking in a savings account. But now with NIL, do you think that philosophy of an athlete sort of has to be an entrepreneur, has to be an influencer, has to have like a public facing business sense? Is that kind of pervasive, becoming pervasive both in college and pro sports?

Sean Clifford (10:38)
I think it's moving the needle forward and growing the industry as a whole. I think it's honestly an extremely fantastic opportunity to be able to not only build your brand and monetize your name image and likeness, but a true opportunity to find a why outside of your sport. Because when I found business and when I found this opportunity in this industry, the sports industry that I really did

I was just a football player. I was a football player just trying to find my way and the only out was making it to the NFL. But the beauty of what NIL and this industry and everything that's progressed alongside of it is now giving athletes an opportunity to really and truly find a why beyond sport. So that way when they exit sport, whenever that might be, whether it be collegiately, high school, professionally.

They have something to lean on because they have developed their mindset outside of what they do on a day-to-day basis. So I think it's fantastic. I'm super pro in IL, always have and always will.

Michael Conniff (11:44)
Yeah, that's not surprising, Sean. Put some money in your pocket. Pat, what do team stands for? I believe technology. Tell me if I'm wrong, entertainment, athletes. What's the M media maybe marketing. Okay. So what do you do for an athlete? So, so here's my real question for you, Pat, as somebody who's been in this a long time. Um, when, when

Sean Clifford (11:48)
Yeah, as it should be.

Pat Waters (12:01)
Marketing.

Michael Conniff (12:12)
I look at this landscape of NIL platforms. It's getting crowded. You know, it's really getting crowded out there. And it's very hard to differentiate one from the other. So I guess what I would ask you and then I'll ask Sean is how do you, what makes you unique and how do you make sure you take care of the, you know, the AIN team, so to speak?

Pat Waters (12:35)
Yeah, well, the A is the key and Limitless, their mantra, which really got me was for the athletes, by the athletes. So we're hitting on the A, as Sean mentioned, it's not a high level group marketing that's trying to drill into this group. These are athletes have been there. They know the rigors of sports. They know the time it takes on being a student athlete. And we...

We don't just hand out, we create true marketing packages where the athlete has duties that they need to perform and the company is going to see a return on investment. So we marry the two. That's always my background was always monetizing an athlete's brand outside of their professional athletes brand outside of their contract. And that's partnering them with companies, partnering them with like minded brands.

And it's got to be a win-win for both. So, you know, we're not just handing out checks to athletes. You know, we're not going to knock any of the collectives because they have their place at all the universities, but we truly are a niche boutique marketing company. And the athletes are learning as they go. I think one of the key words that Sean always said is, we empower our athletes, right? That's what we do. We empower them to understand how the deal works, how a company needs.

It has to be a win one how a company needs an ROI. And that's what gets you your second, your third and recitative deals that come down the road. Really, that's what we do. We're a boutique marketing company and we empower athletes. And like I said, not every one of them is going to be a professional athlete. Sean, that was his dream. He fulfilled it. We like to think we work with high-caliber athletes and our percentage is going to be

pretty strong, but at the end of the day, we're preparing these young men and women for life and the real world if they don't choose that professional sports path.

Michael Conniff (14:40)
The real world is kind of morphing for this. So Sean, what is your pitch to athletes as an athlete? What do you say both about the situation they're in and also about what your company can bring to their situation?

Sean Clifford (14:56)
Yeah, I think that first and foremost, our offering is very clear cut. No red lines, no behind the curtain conversations. We're bringing everything to the forefront. We're going to describe everything that is happening from a deal to deal basis, from a day to day basis, from a marketing perspective, from building your brand and everything in between because that is what I wanted in an agency. So I built...

I had the opportunity alongside a fantastic team and my awesome brother to be, and now with the help of somebody who's been in the professional industry for 25 years doing this at a very high level, we've had the opportunity to build something that's not only a marketing company that can work alongside of fortune 500 businesses across the country. We also now have a vehicle that empowers, like Pat said, empowers the athlete.

and takes away all the red tape, all the red lining and being able to say, Hey, if you want to educate yourself, if you want to learn, if you want to grow, not only as a player, but also as a brand, this is the perfect place to do it because I, it's proven. I've done it myself. My brother's doing it currently at Penn State and every athlete that we've come in contact with has had a positive experience. So it's all about gaining that collective group.

bringing that collective group alongside to make sure that everyone is moving in the right direction.

Michael Conniff (16:27)
And your brother, we should point out, is still a wide receiver at Penn State or has been a wide receiver?

Sean Clifford (16:34)
Still a wider seer at Penn State, just had his first year starting this past year, so he's looking to hopefully join me at the G pretty soon.

Michael Conniff (16:43)
in the big league. So a key metric here, Pat, would be how many athletes have you signed up and what are you doing with them? You know, what's happening?

Pat Waters (17:02)
We've scaled up to around 100. We've scaled back a little bit. Right now, I think we're settled in probably around 50 or 60, Sean, right now that we have keyed in on.

Sean Clifford (17:13)
Yep. Yeah. And really it's a nice blind Michael of working with elite, you know, our elite talent, people that were working on a day to day basis. But the beauty is the network can continue to expand. And that's really that limitless core offering, you know, the, the more general pool group where we have so many relationships with great agents, great collectives, great universities, where they might not be in the limitless direct elite talent pool.

But we have thousands of athletes in the network that we're working with on a day to day basis impacting in a positive light.

Michael Conniff (17:48)
So the collective is a big part of this and I just learned about it really very recently despite being a pretty rabid sports fan. And I think what clued me to it was I read a story that said Rick Pitino, the new coach at St. John's, the basketball coach, was quote, spending all of his time raising money for the collective. So I'll let either one of you take it. But what is a collective?

And why should we care? And why does everyone care?

Sean Clifford (18:21)
Yeah, I can fill in the dots there, Pat, if you don't mind. Since I was quite literally just there at the college level dealing alongside of the collective. But really the bare bones thought of a collective is to group all the athletes into one pool and say, hey, you are protected under our umbrella. And there's great collectives out there. There's ones that are trying to improve.

Pat Waters (18:25)
Yeah.

Sean Clifford (18:48)
But all in all, it's about being able to really put a group licensing agreement type organization together to be able to move all the athletes, whether it be men's sports, women's sports, you name it, to be able to move them to brands effectively and easily and also be able to vet agencies like us. Obviously, we have nothing to hide and we are very friendly with a lot of the collective. So it's something that we pride ourselves on.

But really when it comes to working alongside these collectives, their number one thing is trying to push the school and trying to push the motto, the mantra, specifically if you're talking about Penn State, it's the success with honor type group. The group that is trying to push the whole deal of what Penn State truly means. So always trying to help them in any way that we possibly can.

Michael Conniff (19:43)
So just, and maybe you can clarify this a little bit, Pat. So the collective raises money effectively, right? But raises money for all athletes or just the upper tier of athletes. I've read stories about people saying every lineman is gonna get 60 grand or something like that. Is it everyone or is it just the elite?

Pat Waters (19:57)
Yeah.

So each collective has different philosophies throughout the country. Not every state is regulated the same way, not every university collective is run the same way. But in essence, yes, the collectives actually started out as a 501-C3, you know, it was a not-for-profit. Yeah, and they started out, guys, donations were able to be.

Michael Conniff (20:27)
Nonprofit, yeah.

Pat Waters (20:33)
tax write-offs, such and such, that quickly the IRS shut that down after one year. We were pretty confident that was going to happen. But to answer your questions, they use it in a lot of different ways. And it's from what we've seen, it's proportionate to the sports that bring in the same, you know, the most income, right? The most revenue for the schools. There's a direct ratio of how much they turn back around into each program. But the goal for a collective.

doing it the right way is to sprinkle something through all of the collegiate sports, both men and women's.

Michael Conniff (21:09)
Yeah, and so, you know, what's interesting is an athlete like Caitlin Clark, biggest female college basketball star, maybe the biggest basketball star right now. Right, so she's, I think, has a choice and a similar, you know, not unlike yours, Sean, you decided to spend the sixth year, post pandemic year at Penn State. And I think you got an advanced degree that way in broadcasting, is that right?

Sean Clifford (21:21)
eventually.

I did, yes.

Michael Conniff (21:40)
So, so getting ready for the future. But, but Caitlin Clark, I, it seems like she might be able to make more money if she stays than if she goes. Is that, is that how you guys read it?

Sean Clifford (21:51)
Oh yeah.

Yeah, so it's a pretty interesting case study to look at alongside with a lot of these athletes that are in college right now because we talk about it always in the locker room. You know, my, you can look up my salary online, you know, the Green Bay Packers and everybody posted. Perfect. I'm glad that you did.

Michael Conniff (22:11)
I did look up your salary. You have a four-year contract, right? And you're in your second year, but the NFL being the NFL, you can be cut at any moment.

Sean Clifford (22:17)
Yes, yes, four years.

Could be traded, could be cut, it could go a million different ways. Yes. Yes, absolutely. It's a contract until you don't have one. But in light of Caitlin Clark and everything that's going on with her, it's really we talk about all the time in the locker room. Guys and girls are taking pay cuts now to go professional, which is the conversation itself now.

Michael Conniff (22:27)
Yeah. No guarantee. Yeah, it's a contract until you don't have one.

Sean Clifford (22:49)
I can't say the same. I wasn't taking a pay cut to go back to Penn State. I was going back to Penn State to continue to pursue my dream of playing in the NFL because at that point, the draft wars and everybody was saying I was not a contender to be there. Now, the Rose Bowl definitely helps. A good season at Penn State definitely helped. So I got to project myself out and be able to build my portfolio and my resume of why I should be in the NFL. So that is one way of looking at it. But for a girl like Caitlin Clark,

she a hundred percent going to the professional league would be taking the pay cuts. So it is definitely something to watch, something that everybody as the sports fans should be looking at. How are players like that going to handle that type of pressure? And it's going to be interesting how it all plays out.

Michael Conniff (23:35)
So Pat, I want to ask you, while we still have a couple minutes, what kind of deals have you done? What are some of the, who are some of the athletes you're working with on the marketing side?

Pat Waters (23:47)
Yeah, so you're talking specifically in NIL or college, you know, we're kind of F-crap. No, so we work, we do a lot of stuff with teams in the Northeast. We had, we have some players lined up. They're not signed deals yet. So

Michael Conniff (23:54)
Either. Whatever you're doing.

Pat Waters (24:06)
with the Kansas City Chiefs. We had some contingencies with a couple of the San Francisco 49ers. We're big in jumping into hot market stuff. That's really a key to success. A consumer with emotion is a spending consumer, and we've been very good monetizing that. So that's part of really been our bread and butter on the professional side. One of the things I did want to...

Michael Conniff (24:24)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Pat Waters (24:35)
just circle back to on athletes and people we're working with. Some of our top, one of the things I've been so proud about with Limitless, it's not so much our quantity right now, it's the quality of student athletes we're working with and influencers. Some of our top revenue generators, one of them is a lacrosse player in the Northeast, and one of them is a female basketball player. So...

uh, you know, collegiate basketball player. So I really like the fact that we've, you know, we're spread across. People think NIL all about football, right? But the earners and you know, what we've seen are ones that will, you know, take the advice and follow the influencer, the athlete influencer model that Limitless has really created. So, you know, that's, that's where I tip my hat to those guys.

Michael Conniff (25:29)
And Sean, I wanted, Pat in a previous conversation mentioned something called the quarterback club. So I'm gonna commit a mortal sin, which is asking a question I don't know the answer to. So is there such a thing and what is it?

Sean Clifford (25:47)
Yeah, so the quarterback club was actually developed. It was myself, Will Levis, who's the starter for the Tennessee Titans. And then a few other guys who were involved with the group. But the quarterback club was quite literally just to bring in great minds, great speakers to be able to educate some of the top quarterbacks in the country. It has now transpired into a venture group that puts deals together for athletes. And then we also, alongside...

partner with Limitless NIL to do marketing alongside these raises. So it has been something that is going to be, honestly, in the works as we go, going to be very, very influential for companies that we partner with, but also for the athletes and Limitless as a whole. So it's a win-win-win across the board, a great opportunity to educate, bring in some great networking opportunities to quarterbacks and also just NFL players in general, and get them a seat at the table, because that's one of the things

I would say a hot button topic right now that is changing. Before it was a lot more just ownership and founders just sitting at the table talking about athletes. And now there are actual athletes and influencers moving to the table and being able to speak on their own behalf. So that is a, it's a big development. I would say in the sports industry as a whole, and it'll only get bigger and better as we continue.

Michael Conniff (27:08)
Isn't that because in at least in part, maybe large part, because athletes have so much money now, professional athletes. I mean.

Sean Clifford (27:17)
Yeah, I would say, yeah, I would say 100%. There's, you know, the more capital, the more access to the capital that you have, the more opportunities that you're going to find yourself in. And that is really between college, professionally and beyond legacy players. Everybody's looking for that new Tesla, that new big company, that big private placement that you could find yourself in.

in a niche that you, you know, a consumer good or whatever it might be that you use on a daily basis. If you're going to use it on a daily basis, then why not be on the cat table?

Michael Conniff (27:52)
Yeah, no, it makes great sense. I want to remind everyone again, this is the Accelerator podcast. I'm Michael Conniff, your host. We're here with Sean Clifford and Pat Waters. Pat and Sean are team group holdings. Sean is in charge of Limitless. Pat is in charge of Strategic Sports Marketing and the Sports Vault. They've come together recently, as you've just heard. And I want to, and I, oh.

I almost forgot to mention, Sean does this other thing in Green Bay as a quarterback for the Green Bay Packers, which is super cool. So I want to thank you both for being with us. It's really been a pleasure and I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. And as I like to say at the end of our podcast, thanks for watching and remember, we'll be back with another podcast before you know it. Thanks.

Sean Clifford (28:40)
Thank you, Michael. Appreciate it.

Pat Waters (28:40)
Thank you.